BHD- with a new coat of paint

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BHD- with a new coat of paint

Postby Turtle-ZED » 01-07-2006 10:58 AM

Over the past year, it's not gone unnoticed that there are a number of modders who still have the courage and perseverance to continue with their projects in spite of the games' creators. I have also noticed that ppl are interested in exploring the wider modding community and have started to look at other game engines- either from existing fps games or from source code level upwards.

Many of us are members of this forum because we played anything from DF1/2 through to Jops /DFX and wanted to make a few changes to the setting or the environment, vehicles or weapons. But we wanted to do so because we liked the gameplay, the ease with which servers could be set up, friends found and a good time could be had by all.

My take on this is that now might be a good time to take a slightly different tactic. So far we've hit the wall as far as NOVA lending us any assistance, or even caring what we do. We owe them nothing. We've paid for their game, had some fun and learned some lessons (some of them bitter ones).

So- what to do, what to do then? I thought that since several members have become proficient with the use of the Hammer editor and there now exists a larger community of modders for HL2, then it might be time to look at the source engine more closely. I did make a MOD suggestion over 12 months ago, and many ppl were in favour of it, but ppl held back because shortly after this, NOVA promised support for MODS and we were all getting pretty excited.

At the time CS:Source had been released and there was talk about converting it into a format that was more sympathetic to the gameplay that most of us enjoyed. I played CS:Source for a couple of weeks but got fed up with the pre-teen players who couldn't listen to tactical advice, play as a team or accused anyone who shot them of being a haxxor or a noob (probably two terms that just entered their vocab and they wanted to practice with it a bit).On the other hand there were the CS fanatics who studied every map to the smallest degree for exploits and learned the flashbang charge in the first few moments after downloading. I began to wonder whether these players had actually ever done a day's work, moved away from home or had even kissed a girl.To be fair, a 3 minute game repeated endlessly with mirror-imaged weapons and a purse- just wasn't my thing.

A couple of weeks ago I downloaded DOD:Source. Whilst not a huge improvement on DOD, the whole package looked fresher, gfx were clearer and the physics engine made the setting more immersive. The game had player classes, control points and respawns. I began to get a little more interested. I grabbed my MG and –jeez nearly shot a crow- serious recoil. I tried every weapon and had a peep around the maps. I actually thought that they were well designed. The Source engine can't handle huge outdoor environments, but it managed to fool the eye into thinking that you weren't in an arena game.

So I went back to my earlier post and read it, chewed it over for a little while and thought I'd put my thoughts down here.

So how do you fancy recreating BHD-style gameplay, with Stock maps in Source? Looking at many stock BHD maps, the action really happens in an area the size of which Source can happen. In its simplest form, the player models from CS:Source and weapons could be used, some of the buildings etc. Some obviously would need creating from scratch as most CS/DOD models have no roofs. Vehicles- well it's a sticky one, but to be fair- if you had a driveable hummer and a crashed Black Hawk, I think I could live with that. I think that of the many ppl who play CS/DOD/HL2 would greatly enjoy the gameplay of BHD, but also appreciate the use of Steam and anti-cheat measures. Hostile Intent and Firearms were popular mods for HL1. I think this might bring something more interesting to HL2.

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Postby Money88 » 01-07-2006 12:21 PM

that sounds pretty sweet
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Postby Turtle-ZED » 01-07-2006 01:44 PM

And...I was thinking that maybe a few CO-OP levels- with say up to 16 Human players on one side (Ranger and Delta ) and squads of Somali militia on the other. Goals to achieve (objectives to take and hold for a length of time, items to recover from crash site, rooftop snipers to locate/mark with coloured smoke for littlebirds to strafe.

Noticed this in Source documentation:

- Battle AI allows squads of AI characters to operate together, know when to advance, retreat, lay cover fire, etc.


And for the Hummer/technicals:
. Wheels slip and skid
. Realistic suspensions with springs on each wheel
. Realistic leaning during acceleration/deceleration and turning
. Individually tunable parameters such as horsepower, gearing, max speed, shift speed,
tire material, tire friction, spring tension/dampening etc.
. Multiple players in a vehicle in multiplayer
. Hovercraft support for cheaper simulation



And here's a screeny from the HL2:Insurgency Uber Realism MOD:
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Seems entirely possible- doesn't it?
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Postby coolduderyan07 » 01-07-2006 08:53 PM

I think this would be a really kick@ss way of shoving it all in Nova's face and then some. I love the Idea.. I have played around with many of the little tools and techniques in hammer and I am very impressed. What will do a great deal of help for hl2 modders and former BHD mappers is the fact that there is a little handy tool found in hammer that lets you spawn enemies every couple seconds if you desire. Like in BHD coop, there were little to no ways of getting AI to respawn at all. The effects and graphics.. and the pure detail of urban envoirnments is simply amazing in Hl2, and will surely bring out the Real Black Hawk Down. And you know all the glitches and cheaters in BHD, basically why we left BHD, they will be reduced to the smallest level imaginable. What is good about these small envoirnments is that, well If there are cheaters.. we could spot them easily.. Not like a sniper 50 km away using bazooka rounds... no, even with admins it will be a more enjoyable experience.. And I think that we could squeeze out an extra 50 meters in hl2 because in most of the maps in BHD, like you said turtle,.. were concentrated on small areas anyway.. Also it would open up a new world to singleplayer.. the maps were blocked off in BHD anyway.. wether it was physical objects.. or an invisible boundary that you could not step over unless you would get mission fail.. Another cool thing brought to us in Hl2 were the snipers.. remeber the guy in the window with the blue lazer pointer.. yea.. imagine that In Somalia, not knowing where the sniper is.. ( in this case without the laser) and having to find cover for you and your teamates, then finding and eliminating the sniper. It would be amazing to be walking down the street and having a sniper shoot at you with precision, BHD snipers were a joke... And one last thing I would love to point out... The AI.. The AI played a big part in BHD and you know how stupid they were.. yet we sort of enjoyed the singleplayer... imagine BHD with hl2 AI.. It will be basically a new game.. The vehicle physics will bring out alot in the game .. even if it is a street you have to drive through for a level.. thats fine with intense combat with RPG's.. remeber in BHD going down an alley having RPG's flying at you and your convoy .. it was fun.. but not as fun as this is going to be,.. I really think that this will be something that will make NOVA snap... or at least look at themselves and realize what they could of had with us modders out here.. I for one will help out in any way possible to make this a true game.. I have modeling skills and I can use hammer pretty well.. I really want this mod to go somewhere.. because lately we have talked about really cool things but never really let them happen.. and forgot about them.. this mod needs support of our forums.. and if I can will join the team and assist in anything they need.. I am a big fan of HL2 and would like to share the experience with A BHD styled HL2...
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Postby Turtle-ZED » 01-08-2006 10:10 AM

Here's a Mogadishu block I was playing with (all from scratch, but close to the NOVA original) Added drainpipes, satellite dishes and an air con unit: (windows are temp- they'll have shutters or blinds)
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Postby Turtle-ZED » 01-08-2006 01:20 PM

Does anyone have any specifics about maximum map sizes?
I've seen the estimates range from 500 cubic metres to 2 miles.

Also- entity counts- I've looked around and seen between 500 and 2000 max (that's a seriuously bada$$ co-op LOL)

By the way- thanks for the input and enthusiasm so far guys ;)
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good idea

Postby SonicDeath » 01-08-2006 02:10 PM

Great Idea except for the problem that everybody in this community seems to always wanna do there own stuff. Very rarly do people (modders) work together in this community for a common goal. People have thier own ideas and very seldomly listen to others. Example are are all the mod teams just within Terranova doing different mods. I'm not bad at all with Hammer and when I mentioned I was mapping in 2HL2 on this forum and how agravated I was with nova I seemed to get a cold shoulder from most.
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Postby Turtle-ZED » 01-08-2006 02:38 PM

Aha- but the secret behind this is that once the gameplay and the models are sorted, there'll be a kinda vanilla BHD. From there, this can be used as the foundation for that BHD- Navy SEALS, Conquest Baghdad MOD or SWAT MOD- anything really, as the game will play like BHD/TS....

It took the community time to figure out how the engine worked in BHD and to be fair, the tools supplied by Nova were limited. With the Source SDK, XSI Mod Tool and numerous compilers, decompliers, tutorials etc, it just means relearning the process with a different toolset.
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Postby Trigger » 01-09-2006 04:26 AM

my msn is trigger@pro-warrior.com i can help you. i have a video here to show that Source is the engine for us to use.

I can code (from tutorials: and hack that code a bit)
I know a good coder
i have some friends that rock at making maps

One suggestion for you is to get the files to uncompress valves maps and see for yourself how they are made.

one is the mogadishu block doesn't have to be models now and could could be strictly (efficiant) brushes and made into a prefab to be added to a map easily.
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Postby Trigger » 01-09-2006 04:27 AM

another note i started to learn source in november. I am satisfied completly with valves learning curve.
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Postby Turtle-ZED » 01-09-2006 11:15 AM

Thanks for the advice Trigger... hadn't thought about brushes, although HL2 does use some prefabs as well. I was thinking about a few blocks as prefabs to drop in, rotate etc to flesh out the maps with. Also having prefabs ensured that roofs were there as well.

I pitched this and really wondered about the amount of responses to the topic. I was umming and erring about the correct game engine for it...to be fair, I'm most excited by the upcoming Quake Wars: Enemy territory and the new MegaTexture technology for the D3 Engine- the ability to make huge outdoor maps with drivable and flyable objects... However, there is so much useful HL2 stuff out there that this seemed the most appropriate format for my early ideas.

DO check out the ET:QW stuff tho:

http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2005/081505_quakewars_1.x
http://www.telefragged.com/interviews/etquakewars/

looks sweet...
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Check out the video on the site:
http://www.enemyterritory.com/

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Postby Black Ice » 01-09-2006 03:39 PM

I've seen those screenshots before back in June or July and wondering how they were planning on releasing a game with graphics like that on a PC, when not everyone has the specs to run a game of that class.

Pretty awesome graphics...

Turtle I really like the idea, and I think this is what should make the entire community to work together on the project, because, as coolryan said, everyone wants to do their own thing, which is why stuff never gets done as that big a group...:

Turtle-ZED wrote:Aha- but the secret behind this is that once the gameplay and the models are sorted, there'll be a kinda vanilla BHD. From there, this can be used as the foundation for that BHD- Navy SEALS, Conquest Baghdad MOD or SWAT MOD- anything really, as the game will play like BHD/TS....

It took the community time to figure out how the engine worked in BHD and to be fair, the tools supplied by Nova were limited. With the Source SDK, XSI Mod Tool and numerous compilers, decompliers, tutorials etc, it just means relearning the process with a different toolset.


with the idea that if everyone works together, an incredibly high-quality piece of work can appear, i think getting together a group of people that big is a definite possibility. it would be a major benefit factor for everyone.

i whole-heartedly support the idea, but at the same time, i realize i can't even touch BHD any longer because of it's sheer simplicity. i have played the game since december 2001 (when the old demo came out with car-15 and m21 at the same time), and it just isn't the same 5 years later. i've played joint operations extensively for over a year, and battlefield 2, also. i've gotten fed up of all of these people saying they are going to release BHD mods and then quitting their work, i have totally lost interest in the game, minus the fact tha the NSO mod is coming out.

i remember i was talking to my friend boss one night and he said he'd release the mod overnight. i'd talked to him for months about the mod and seen screenshots. i wake up the next morning and he's trashed the project.

there's lots of examples like this... it's just not the same.

can you keep a team squared off for a goal this big?

looking back at the delta force series` mods, all there really have ever been are some EXPs released by Terranova. is this enough experience to make something like a mod of this scale work?

is there enough of a community that would PLAY the mod, or are 90% of the players like me at this point and delta force gameplay is just "too simple" to them, and they're used to more "skill" like crouching and setting up a good shooting point?

:(
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Postby Trigger » 01-10-2006 04:26 AM

Max size was posted on an awsome forum that just lost hosting damn. But anyway look in a valve map and see how the skyboxes are arragned.

it is possible to make the conbine chopper flyable lets do a test map and try to break it.
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Postby SharpEdge » 01-10-2006 10:52 AM

This is a fantastic idea guys, I know lots of people who'd play it, you can get HL2 for $20, and it'll run on more PC's than some other newer games (eg BF2). I for one haven't played BHD for 6 months, I now only play BF2 or games/mods on the Source engine.

Just to give you a heads up, there is a Somalia mod in progress, this is a post I did elsewhere about it a few weeks ago:

============================
Leave No Man Behind have recently released some new pics/renders from the mod.

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LNMB is a mulitiplayer mod that is based on Operation Gothic Serpent, the US military operation in Mogadishu, Somalia involving US Army Rangers, Delta Force and the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment(SOAR), the Somali Habr Gidr Clan Militia (Somali Nation Alliance) and Somali civilians. Players will choose to play as either an American Soldier or a Somali Militant.

============================
You probably already know this, but a couple of good sites for getting source modding/mapping questions answered are interlopers.net and mapcore.net

Some other similar mods I know of, Turtle already mentioned Insurgency, there's also Sands of War (which is set in the future) and Operation Desert Storm (which is obviously not set in Somalia lol).

On the subject of bots, I've played CSS sometimes and not even realized I've been playing with/against bots, and they often kick my butt.

Good luck, and I hope it comes together.
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Postby SharpEdge » 01-10-2006 11:36 AM

In terms of map size, Turtle mentioned Firearms, which is now World at War for HL2, their maps are huge:

Although I prefer to remain secretive about our mapping techniques, we haven't really done anything special. Using tools and procedures built into the Source engine as well as judicious rescaling, we've created maps that can be up to 2 miles by 2 miles, versus Source's standard half-mile by half-mile max dimensions. Although we maintain the ability to do corridor mapping (our urban maps could make good use of it), our countryside maps can be huge. You won't see any corners or corridors, and only the map boundaries will be the limits of your exploration.
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